The industry is abuzz with changes, and one of the biggest realignments has happened down in Houston, TX, where Joey Savage (formerly of Glaxon) has started his own consulting firm, Savage Nutra.
Joey Savage Launches Savage Nutra Consulting
This podcast was recorded at the Arnold Sports Festival in early March 2024. At the time of recording, Joey had already announced his venture into consulting with Savage Nutra, so Mike and Ben dig deeper to see what he really wants to work on in his perfect world.
Joey Savage joins Team PricePlow for Episode 129 of the PricePlow Podcast to discuss the launch of Savage Nutra, his novel consulting company
The conversation is as wild and interesting as you’d think it would be, with a lot of discussion on novel probiotics, performance, the perfect stool, and crashing rockets into the firmament where water bears survive thanks to the carbohydrate trehalose.
Joey’s not interested in making pre-workout after pre-workout, but if you’ve got an epic idea for him to work on, then he’s all ears. Only the most special projects will get the official Savage Nutra collab label, though.
Note: Since recording this podcast, there have been updates to Joey’s employment situation, which are discussed in a disclaimer in the beginning of the show.
With that said, let’s get into the good stuff on your Podcast app of choice or YouTube:
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https://blog.priceplow.com/podcast/joey-savage-nutra-129
Video: Mike, Ben, and Joey at the 2024 Arnold Sports Festival
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 1:43:29 — 105.1MB)
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0:00 – Disclaimer – Joey is No Longer with Glaxon / Zero Day Nutrition
Since the filming of this interview with Joey Savage at the 2024 Arnold Classic on March 2nd, it had come to light that Glaxon CEO Michael Bischoff had been indicted and prosecuted for selling drugs mislabeled as supplements in the 2016-2018 time span through his company, G.D. Nutrition LLC.[1]
After filming this, Joey announced his resignation from Glaxon (run under the entity Day One Distribution LLC) and Zero Day Nutrition LLC (Bischoff’s contract manufacturing entity that was renamed from G.D. Nutrition).[2]
This podcast was filmed before that revelation, and throughout this conversation, Joey still refers to his employment with Glaxon, which is no longer the case as this is published. Despite these changes, this is still a phenomenal conversation, and we wanted to publish it in its entirety.
It’s important to remember that the activities Bischoff has been indicted for took place between 2016 and 2018, well before Joey joined Glaxon. So please do not take this indictment as a reflection on Joey’s character, or PricePlow’s collaboration with him.
We think Joey’s new consulting firm, Savage Nutra, is a great scoop, and we’re stoked to see what Joey does with it.
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5:00 – Sponsored by Path Forward Formulator
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5:45 – Interview With Joey Savage Begins (Savage Nutra Scoop)
The cat is out of the bag that Joey Savage, CSO of Glaxon, is launching a solo consulting venture called Savage Nutra.
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7:00 – What About Glaxon?
Much has changed since this podcast, when Joey Savage brought Energy Drinks and Cereal to the PricePlow Podcast in their second episode with us (Episode #090)
Despite launching Savage Nutra, Joey is (or was, at the time of this interview) still the Chief Science Officer for Glaxon. The fact that Glaxon had all their 2024 products planned in advance left Joey with enough bandwidth to run Savage Nutra on the side.
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7:45 – What Is Savage Nutra All About? Any Collabs
Is Savage Nutra a supplement company? Not exactly – although Joey is open to doing licensed collaborations, the business model is focused more on hourly consulting jobs like formula reviews and supplement facts label compliance. The target market is mostly industry newcomers who don’t know all the regulatory ins and outs yet.
So what kind of project merits an official Savage Nutra collab label? If it happens, the Savage Nutra licensed collab label will be reserved for long term and innovative projects. An example of something deserving the label would be a six month long project that almost creates a new product category. One phone call isn’t gonna cut it.
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12:00 – Joey’s 5-Year Plan: Beyond Sports Nutrition and Ideal Projects?
Where does Joey envision himself in five years? Does he anticipate shifting his priority back to work with Glaxon? Joey doesn’t want to just consult with supplement brands – he’d also like to do hardcore scientific consulting with ingredient suppliers. An example would be helping an ingredient company with particularly interesting stuff broaden their appeal with a new pricing strategy and marketing strategy. Joey’s goal is to eventually with with ingredient manufacturers in the United States.
Are Joey’s interests limited to just sports nutrition? Absolutely not – he’s just as interested in the general health and wellness side of things, one example being his passion (shared by PricePlow) for NMN. Joey’s all about modulating the systems of the human body, which is definitely not limited to just muscle cells and fat cells.
So in that broader category of interests, what does Joey find most interesting? Right now he’s looking at a couple of probiotic projects that are outside the gut health category (e.g., the microbiome has a big impact on neurotransmitter production).
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14:00 – Joey’s Ideal Microbiome: The Human Trash Compactor
Joey talks about how microbiome diversity is crucial for overall immune health. He wants black belt flora in his gut that can handle absolutely anything he throws at them, including the crappiest food you can think of – in other words, a trash compactor, capable of handling even microplastics. He also makes the point that microflora diversity can improve immune function, setting you up to thrive during the next plandemic.
This interests the guys, and they note that nobody on the show wants to see Joey’s talents wasted on pre-workouts. Expertise like Joey’s is too valuable to waste time on developing cookie-cutter products – PricePlow hopes he’ll turn out some patentable novel ingredients.
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15:45 – More On the Microbiome
Our strategy is two-fold: 1. Remove the insults (generally ultra-processed foods with inflammatory seed oils and fat-soluble alcohols), and 2. Feed your gut the weapons it needs to keep you healthy
Joey points out that humans aren’t the only organism with a microbiome, and talks about the possibility of microbiome transfer from other animals. For example, vultures have the “trash compactor” microbiome Joey was talking about – they have to since they feed on carcasses, and act as the cleanup crew of the entire food chain. Correspondingly, vulture immunity is absolutely off the charts, and perhaps we could replicate that in humans by culturing vulture microflora as a supplement.
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16:50 – Vulture Story Background and Vulture Power
Joey describes the circumstances surrounding the genesis of the vulture-derived probiotic idea. It started when someone came to him and described how black vulture blood is the traditional treatment for cancer in Colombia, a practice that’s most likely rooted in vultures’ immunological supremacy. Mike doesn’t want vulture power, though.
Joey speculates about a future where we don’t need any inoculations before traveling, since our vulture-charged immune systems will shred any regional disease that gets thrown at us. Joey’s not worried about anyone stealing this idea, because not many people are willing to collect vulture fecal samples off the top of cell phone towers. Seriously though, he’s not currently working on the vulture microbiome, but it’s a great example of the kind of thing that interests him.
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19:00 – Joey’s Passion: Lots of bacteria!
Jokes aside, what is Joey most interested in working on? Given his background in genetics and biochemistry, he thinks a lot about genetically modifying bacteria. It’s a uniquely useful modality since you can train a bacterium to do anything. Plus, bacterial fermentation is a great way to create multiple revenue streams (e.g., using bacteria for carbon capture, and then selling the end product plus the biomass substrate).
How about bacteria for blood pressure? Joey talks about the possibility of developing an angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor probiotic strain. The power of this approach is that it enables you to continuously get the desired effect. That’s because microbiome alterations are like software installation for your body, as opposed to pills that need to be taken at regular intervals. Because of this, Joey sees an industry paradigm shift towards probiotic supplements.
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21:45 – Importance of Protecting Intellectual Property
Mike recounts how he’s seen brilliant scientists’ ideas get stolen because they shared them without locking down the intellectual property, and expresses his concern that the same could happen to Joey. Fortunately perhaps, Joey is doing a lot of work with materials that are already patented by others, so he’s not too worried. When it comes to the microplastics thing, he says good luck to anyone who thinks they can beat him there.
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23:00 – Hordenine’s Legality
The gang discuss hordenine’s legal status, and the possibility of Joey filing an NDI for the alkaloid. The consensus is that hordenine has been around for a long time, and even the FDA says it’s time for hordenine to get an NDI. Hordenine occurs naturally in common foods, like bitter orange and hops, so it’s unclear why it even needs an NDI in the first place.
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24:45 – Giving Back to the Industry
Despite the fabulous success of many supplement company executives, the luxury cars and the mansions, very few of them ever help improve the industry’s credibility by funding clinical trials to prove the efficacy of dietary supplements. Unfortunately, it seems to be the case that not many of them really care about the industry in the first place – contributing science and helping improve people’s lives is just not what motivates them.
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25:50 – Industry Ignorance
Even a lot of industry insiders, and supplement company bigshots, don’t really have a clue about the science behind their products. It’s similar to how someone can own and drive a Ferrari without knowing anything about how the car is designed, or how it works.
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26:30 – How To Plan New Supplement Research
Kyowa SSW 2023 Panel: Branded Ingredients and Collaborative Competition with Dan, Joey, and Chris of Ghost, Glaxon, and Nutrabolt
Taking Joey’s anti-microplastics probiotic idea as an example, how does one go about planning the scientific research needed to prove its efficacy, and bring it to market? There’s a standard sequence – cell studies, then rodent studies, then human studies. More specifically, the first step is usually a Caco-2 cell study.
One of the questions that needs answering is what the bacteria turn the microplastics into. In order for the supplement to improve health, we need to ensure that the microplastic metabolites aren’t toxic.
If you’re lucky, the microplastic metabolites will take the form of methane, a fartable gas. This type of metabolite might be preferable to, say, CO2, which can cause health issues if it builds up.
Shooting from the gut, Joey’s estimating that 20% decrease in microplastic content would be a good starting point in terms of the probiotic’s efficacy.
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29:00 – Advantages of Probiotics and Real-World Precedents
When it comes to probiotic supplements, even relatively small effect sizes can have massive compounding effects over time, because once the bacteria take up residence in your gut, they begin working 24/7 to break down microplastics.
Joey points out that the anti-microplastic probiotic can’t be that far-fetched, since bacteria have already been used for bioremediation after oil spills. In the Deepwater Horizon disaster, for example, microbes were used to turn polyaromatic hydrocarbons into CO2. However, of course, the gut microbiome is a very different environment than the surface of the ocean, and a lot of work needs to be done before you can apply this model to humans.
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30:00 – Next Research Step After Caco-2
Once the initial cell study is done, how do you go about designing a pilot study in humans? This isn’t pharma, so we’re not going to get 12,000 subjects. A sample size of 50 is a pretty reasonable starting point in supplement research. What really matters is study design – there needs to be a control group. Without a good study design, big effect sizes actually become more suspicious than smaller ones.
Joey discusses a specific case study within a Discord sleep group led by Joey, involving 15 participants who have been observing the impact of supplements on sleep architecture for almost a year. Joey highlights fascinating findings related to seasonal changes in sleep patterns, noting differences in REM and deep sleep across seasons and its potential implications on mood and cognitive functions, rather than just attributing seasonal mood variations to vitamin D or weather changes alone.
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34:00 – Digital Biomarkers
Mike discusses the potential for engaging podcast listeners as subjects for beta testing dietary supplements and products. Joey shares insights from a class on AI in pharmaceuticals and biotech at MIT, highlighting the importance of digital biomarkers, such as those collected from smartwatches and other IoT devices, in studying interventions like sleep or exercise.
Ben mentions his experience with a WHOOP device, noting its accuracy but also questioning the utility of the vast amount of data it provides for individuals who are already in tune with their bodies.
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35:40 – Cannabis and Melatonin
Ben shares his experience of improving his deep sleep by stopping cannabis use within five hours before bedtime, despite the common belief that it aids sleep. Joey explains the importance of balancing REM and deep sleep, highlighting deep sleep’s crucial role in longevity, cell repair, and memory consolidation.
They discuss strategies to enhance sleep quality, including spacing sleep aids, alcohol, and cannabis from bedtime, and using melatonin in microdoses rather than large amounts. Joey suggests taking sleep aids or substances like melatonin a few hours before bed to allow for natural sleep that maximizes deep sleep.
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39:15 – BHB in beverages?
Mike, Joey, and Ben discuss a new beverage they are drinking, which contains a novel form of BHB (Beta-Hydroxybutyrate) developed by Ketone Labs. This BHB variant is 50% free acid, meaning it can now be used in beverages. Joey mentions the ingredient’s potential for use in non-caffeinated energy drinks, highlighting its benefits for those who have reached their caffeine limit but still seek an energy boost without the usual caffeine crash. They express excitement about upcoming collaborations and potential podcasts with the founder of Ketone Labs at Expo West.
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42:15 – Caffeine vs. BHB and BHB with Carbs?
goBHB was consumed during this podcast
Joey explains his personal caffeine consumption strategy, limiting himself to 320 milligrams per day, split between his wake-up routine and lunchtime, then switching to BHB (Beta-Hydroxybutyrate) for sustained energy. He mentions recent gut microbiome adjustments that have reduced his need for the second caffeine dose, allowing him to rely solely on BHB. The discussion then shifts to the broader utility of BHB beyond just ketogenic diets, emphasizing its potential as a sustained energy source when transitioning off caffeine.
Joey discusses the challenges of using BHB salts in products due to their instability in low pH environments and the potential for causing explosive diarrhea due to the high mineral load. He recounts an experience from 2017 with a BHB ready-to-drink product that led to gastrointestinal issues when consumed in excess.
The conversation then shifts to combining BHB with carbohydrates for enhanced performance during workouts, with Joey recommending a one-to-one ratio to start. He notes the importance of considering the type of carbohydrates used, mentioning a mix that includes ribose, cyclodextrin, and maltodextrin, and the exploration of different ratios for optimal performance. The discussion briefly touches on the use of trehalose, inspired by its use in water bears to prevent dehydration.
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49:30 – Tardigrades
Joey introduces the concept of tardigrades, microscopic organisms known for their resilience. Tardigrades, often referred to as “water bears” due to their appearance, are capable of surviving in extreme environments, including the vacuum of space. The hosts suggest looking up tardigrades online to get a visual understanding of these unique creatures, noting their distinct appearance that can be both cute and unsettling. Joey explains that tardigrades use substances like trehalose and glycerol to protect themselves from harsh environments, highlighting these compounds’ fascinating properties.
The conversation then shifts to the use of trehalose in human nutrition, particularly for athletes, due to its dual purpose of fueling the body and aiding hydration. Joey emphasizes the importance of knowing there are alternative carbohydrate sources available, such as trehalose, for specific uses like endurance sports to maintain hydration alongside fuel provision.
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53:45 – Carbs and electrolytes
Joey discusses the relationship between carbohydrates and electrolyte absorption, highlighting the glucose dependency of sodium chloride transporters. He suggests that even a small amount of carbohydrates can enhance the effectiveness of hydration products by facilitating mineral absorption. Joey explains that while consuming electrolytes during a workout may not require additional carbohydrates for those who have a balanced diet, including carbohydrates in hydration products can serve as a precaution, especially for those practicing fasted cardio or intermittent fasting.
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56:45 – Potassium
Joey talks about the use of potassium gluconate in hydration formulas, noting its absence likely due to potential gastric upset and its appearance as a cheaper, less popular option in sports nutrition. He explains that many formulas opt for potassium sources like potassium citrate or chloride, or ingredients like coconut water, for their potassium content. Due to potassium’s gastrointestinal risks, Glaxon took a more mindful approach when designing Astrolyte.
Joey also comments on the product Prime which has a highly skewed ratio of potassium to sodium, attributing this imbalance to a reliance on coconut water and a lack of thorough consideration in formula design. He suggests that, although not innovative, the approach is relatively safe, given the general potassium deficiency in the American diet and the greater health risks associated with excessive sodium intake.
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1:00:35 – Potassium problems
This paper’s title is so spectacular that it deserves its own call-out.[3] So what gives? We simultaneously believe that sodium recommendations can go higher, but potassium does need to be supplemented in modern dieters as well.
Joey shares anecdotes and insights about the potential GI discomfort from excessive potassium intake, highlighting the importance of balance in electrolyte consumption. The conversation also touches on the broader context of dietary habits, suggesting that some potassium supplementation might be beneficial given the high sodium intake from processed foods prevalent in many diets. Additionally, there’s a humorous exchange about the importance of discussing bowel movements in the context of health and detoxification.
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1:03:15 – Fiber Fusion
Joey discusses Glaxon Fiber Fusion, designed to be used alongside a sleep aid like Tranquility for improved digestive health, emphasizing the importance of a morning bowel movement as part of a perfect night’s sleep.
He shares findings from surveys about bowel movement habits, highlighting that most people tend to have their bowel movements in the morning, partly due to the effects of gravity and posture change.
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1:07:00 – Fiber and psyllium husk
Joey mentions that fiber supplements in capsule form are not ideal due to the large doses required for effectiveness. There’s a discussion about the potential risks of psyllium capsules expanding in the esophagus and the preference for consuming psyllium husk powder with water to avoid gastrointestinal issues like acid reflux.
The group also touches on the importance of timing fiber intake separately from other supplements to avoid interference with absorption, highlighting how fiber can slow down the release and delay the effectiveness of other ingested substances. Joey notes that some companies are exploring fiber blends with supplements like melatonin to create time-release effects.
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1:08:45 – Niacin and The Flush
Joey discusses his use of two grams of niacin, significantly more than Mike’s 100 milligrams, highlighting the transformative experience of a niacin flush. Joey describes the niacin flush as proof of supplements’ effectiveness, detailing the process from the onset to the afterglow and improved peripheral blood flow.
The NAD Pathways, in blue.[4] * In the description above, we mention that there are four known pathways. This is counting the two different salvage pathways on the bottom separately.
The conversation also touches on Paul Stamets’ recommendation to combine niacin with psilocybin and Lion’s Mane for enhanced peripheral action. Joey advocates for enduring the intense experience of a high-dose niacin flush as a journey through various states of discomfort and satisfaction.
Joey discusses how to mitigate the niacin flush or adapt to higher doses, suggesting that over time, with consistent use, one’s body may adapt and no longer experience the flush even at doses like two grams. He mentions that doses around 800 milligrams were used in clinical studies for NAD+ replenishment and that doses up to three grams could affect insulin sensitivity negatively.
Joey also touches on using niacin for lipid and cholesterol modulation. The conversation briefly explores the idea of combining niacin with other supplements and experiences, like sauna use, to enhance detoxification effects, with a note on balancing intake and detoxification for overall health.
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1:14:00 – Niacin Pre-Workout and Reduced Performance
Joey discusses a study that suggested pre-workout niacin supplementation could decrease performance, potentially due to reduced lipid circulation. He explains the mechanism by which niacin reduces cholesterol and triglycerides as a “parlor trick” that signals the body to store these substances in cells, effectively clearing the blood.
This mechanism is also mentioned in the context of using niacin to pass THC drug tests by temporarily removing fats from the bloodstream. Joey notes that while this method can work, it is not always reliable.
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1:16:00 – Passing THC Tests?
Joey humorously discusses a unique strategy for passing THC drug tests involving physical activity to liberate THC stored in fat cells, followed by consuming high-fat foods to create a new layer of fat to “bury” the THC.
The discussion also covers the use of niacin in conjunction with this strategy to enhance the effect. They explore the possibility of experiencing a high from released THC during physical activity and discuss the theoretical aspects of THC storage and turnover in fat cells.
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1:20:15 – Cannabis enhancement supplement
Joey expresses interest in exploring the entourage effect with endogenous cannabinoids and discusses his experimental supplement, the “Canna Cascade,” which aims to enhance the effects of cannabis. He mentions how certain fats, including arachidonic acid, play a role in cannabinoid receptor modulation, enhancing the potency of cannabis.
The conversation touches on the potential for such a supplement to be marketed, considering the legal and regulatory challenges associated with making claims about its effects. Joey and the hosts discuss the viability of selling such products in dispensaries or head shops as a way to leverage dietary supplement knowledge in the context of recreational drug use.
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1:23:30 – Microplastics
The discussion turns to the issue of microplastics and their pervasive presence in daily life, from food packaging to utensils. Joey highlights the ubiquitous use of plastic in food containers and the potential health risks associated with microplastic consumption. He suggests that while capsules might be a safer option due to their inert materials, powders could interact with their plastic packaging or shaker cups, potentially leading to microplastic contamination. The conversation also touches on the logistical challenges of avoiding plastic, like the difficulty of finding non-plastic alternatives for product packaging and the importance of being aware of these issues without necessarily ceasing supplement use.
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1:25:45 – Food source adaptation
The discussion shifts to a variety of topics, including a sample of a product called Ketonella, prompting the group to wonder if Nutella will have an issue with the name.The group talks about the resilience of one’s digestive system to different foods and touches on dietary flexibility and preparedness for supply chain disruptions, suggesting the importance of being able to adapt to different food sources.
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1:28:00 – The state of the supplement industry
The NPA (Natural Products Association) has announced their annual Washington DC Fly-In Day for 2024: May 22! Join us and support the dietary supplement industry.
The conversation shifts to future plans, with Joey expressing a desire to be more involved in the industry on a broader scale, potentially through activities like fundraising for industry causes and joining events like NPA’s Fly-In Day to advocate for the industry’s interests.
There’s also a discussion about the importance of unity within the industry to address regulatory challenges effectively. Mike brings up the idea of lobbying efforts and speculates about potential meetings with politicians like Senator Marco Rubio and Senator Ted Cruz through industry associations like the NPA. Joey responds that he doesn’t think these senators “give a f*ck” about supplements. Ben agrees, but says that they do remember 2020 and NAC getting hit. He thinks that people understand health more than ever and that it’s about connecting dots for them.
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1:30:45 – A new generation of supplement industry leaders
Joey talks about how we are experiencing the aging of the largest generation ever seen, and the proliferation of non-communicable metabolic diseases as a result of lifestyle and environmental factors. Between alcoholic, sedentary lifestyles, obesity, smoking, and more, general health is on the precipice of total collapse.
A lot of these factors could have been avoided with proper nutrition, and Joey thinks Gen Xers and onwards are more conscious of this due to athletic heroes and cultural icons. Joey acknowledges that many of them are on gear, but maintains that the next generation of politicians may be more amenable to discussions about dietary supplements.
Joey wants to sit in front of the opposition of the industry and ask for some kind of dialogue and middle ground.
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1:35:00 – The regulatory battleground
Ben mentions that when they go to DC and meet with NPA, that’s the time to talk to your representatives, but that there are always opportunities to talk to representatives on a state and local level.
Discussing states, Joey says that he doesn’t think Texas, Florida, and Utah are a problem. States like Rhode Island, New Jersey, New York, California, and more are the problem. The group makes an appeal to the audience to get in contact, and to ask how they can get involved. While many of the staunch industry opponents won’t respond to reason, they will respond to force (i.e. being a pain).
Mike asks what prompted Joey to get involved, and he said that NMN was the main powder keg for him. It’s a B vitamin (as described in our NMN FDA breakdown), and the egregious oversteps by regulators signaled a major step out of bounds.
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1:41:30 – The danger of precedent
Ben is worried about precedent. He brings up CBD, and its pharmaceutical role. As a result, because of the war on drugs, the supplement industry never had a big opportunity to explore and research it.
Ben says that drawing clear lines is critical, and Mike hopes those lines will come out of the legal actions being undertaken by NPA.
Where to Find Joey
- Instagram: @SavageNutra
- LinkedIn: Joey Savage
- Supp Works Podcast
Thanks to Nutramedia for the media support, and thanks for spending such a wonderful time with us Joey!
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