There’s a controversial new brand that’s been making headline after headline lately, and it’s time we chimed in with our two cents.
Their name is CHAOS AND PAIN, and they’re delivering some hardcore supplements that they believe the market has been lacking.
Given their recent success, they might be right.
After a highly inflammatory argument on Reddit between Chaos and Pain’s co-founder (and powerlifting record holder), Jamie Lewis, and Reddit moderator Kurtis Frank, I figured it was time to get on the phone and learn what was really going on here.
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That’s fine, but please let it be noted that it’s not my goal to defend them nor to attack them. It’s simply my goal to educate and explain the Chaos and Pain brand to you so that you can decide whether or not you want to join their tribe.
So I spoke to Wayne Banks, the other co-founder and “braintrust” of Chaos and Pain who works alongside Jamie, and came away with the following:
This is a hardcore supplement company
Make no mistake – Chaos and Pain is not for sissies. This is not intended for your average user.
Their mantra is one of sheer aggression, and they’ll even tell you that themselves. On their Facebook page, they even state that they are the project mayhem of the supplement world.
Hell, nearly every single one of their products starts with the word “Cannibal”, and their current Facebook banner says “Violence over Virtue”. I’m laughing as I write this, but I’m also 100% serious. See for yourself:
And in case that isn’t enough to convince you, read their very own article titled “Why go Cannibal,” which is basically their “About Us” page. It tells you their very scary story, and serves as a perfect filter to get rid of users who probably shouldn’t be using their products.
Hell, they even an extremely popular strength and training blog that’s more NSFW (not safe for work) than anything I’ve ever seen this industry company produce – by a longshot!
Long story short – these guys are the insanely intense and are trying to legitimize badassery.
The question is, can you safely handle it?
These products are not for beginners
Some of their products are fine for everyone, but a few of them — like the stimulant-based products — are definitely not.
If you look at the label and aren’t sure whether you can handle one of their products… then chances are, you shouldn’t bother trying.
In the notorious Reddit thread mentioned above, which is about the new version of their stim-heavy pre workout Cannibal Ferox (discussed later), Jamie even says so himself:
I don’t give newbies advice and the products aren’t available at GNC, so newbies won’t be trying them. — Jamie Lewis, Founder of Chaos and Pain
Of course, Kurtis’ response is just as valid, and it’s actually why we’re writing this blog post:
You severely underestimate the breadth of the internet and the standard newbie. — Kurtis Frank, in response to the above quote
The point is, know what you’re getting yourself into here — at least with the stim-based products. Chances are, you’re not ready.
All is fine and well until someone gets hurt… so my goal here is to prevent that from happening.
All formulas are 100% open and non-proprietary
This is really what I love about this brand. It’s one thing for a brand to say that they’re hardcore. We see it all the time.
But it’s another thing to be hardcore, and let the whole world see your formulas for what they are — Strong as hell.
Assuming Chaos and Pain are actually dosing the products like they say they are (and I see no reason why they wouldn’t), one could argue that there’s nobody to blame but yourself for misusing their product.
If you’re not sure about an ingredient, you can research it. You can even go and buy that ingredient in its raw form, get a good micro-scale, and test out smaller dosages of each one yourself.
It’s all right there on the label. If you don’t like it, then don’t buy it. But nobody’s being fooled here, that’s for sure.
This makes me feel a bit better about the safety side of things… to a degree, the modus of safety is put on you (the consumer).
On top of that, I know for a fact that these guys are making a smaller profit margin than most other companies. Hardcore indeed.
So in my opinion, that’s what makes this company stand out from their “hardcore” peers. Every last decision is done with a fist in your face, and in the process, sometimes they spite their own.
The SARM Series
In 2015, in response to the banning of prohormones, C&P released a limited supply of SARMs, which are next-generation muscle-builders. While many of them seem far safer than prohormones, they are not without their controversy!
Click the link to read more about the SARMs, or Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators.
They are coming out with the Olympus Series, a more “mass-market” product
Wayne is also excited about the Olympus Series, which will be a product line that can be marketed more towards the masses. It sounds like it’ll first be a BCAA / intraworkout / enudrance supplement (Olympus Mercury), as well as a joint support supplement (Olympus Helios).
So, not everything from these guys is geared towards eating babies and destroying all mankind for the greater good of the gym…
We look forward to seeing these products, and seeing how C&P competes in this area.
They are selling nootropics that most other companies won’t touch
One of the things I’ve always been very interested are nootropics, which are essentially brain enhancers. Many of them fall into a class known as the racetams, which include aniracetam and piracetam (both with great write-ups on our main site).[4,5]
Chaos and Pain have two nootropic-based products that contain those racetams (and more) — Cannibal Genius and Cannibal Da Vinci.[6,7]
The “hardcore” part is on the seller’s shoulders
When it comes to the FDA, these racetams — and other nootropics like them — are in a very gray area. Update: Jamie has clarified this in his extremely helpful comment at the bottom of this post.
They’re more like “drugs” than supplements, and my understanding is that they cannot be marketed as dietary supplements.
If you spend enough time following this stuff, you may even learn of stories where DEA agents have raided warehouses with their AK’s drawn in search of these products when marketed “illegally”. It gets that crazy.
To get an idea, read the FDA’s verbage in their warning letter that was sent to one retailer regarding the marketing of these products.
So, selling some of these nootropics brings a hefty risk that most major supplement companies don’t want to deal with. Being who they are, Chaos and Pain clearly have no problem with that. They just need to make sure that they’re doing things appropriately if they continue to grow.
Because at this rate, they will not be flying under the radar for much longer.
Note: In terms of the nootropic ingredients themselves, we think that they’re incredible compounds with amazing benefits. In these cases, the “hardcore” part is more on CnP’s behalf for taking the risk — not typically the user’s.
Perhaps the rules have changed since we last checked (we await Jamie’s comments on this post!), but that’s our take for now.
That’s my basic summary of C&P, based on my opinions and what I gathered from Wayne.
Now let’s talk about what the latest fuss is all about.
The New Cannibal Ferox Argument
To the right is the label for the new Cannibal Ferox pre workout supplement, which spurred the latest controversy.
Obviously, this stuff is no joke, with a bucketload of stimulants stacked on top of a whopping 450mg of caffeine in one scoop.
There are a few major issues with this that caused such concern:
One scoop will knock most people off of their asses in terms of caffeine content alone. Add the rest of the stims and you’re potentially inviting trouble if you take a whole scoop. For the umpeenth time… it’s not for beginners.
Further, some users get a bit too cocky with their stimulant tolerance, and may jump into a full scoop (or more!) right away. BAD IDEA!!
Why not a smaller scoop?
The biggest (and most reasonable) argument is that this tub should not be dosed so heavily at each scoop. It’d be better off having 75 servings, each with 1/3 of the dosage and a smaller scooper.
This would make it easier for everyone to assess tolerance, and limit the risk since the lesser-informed users would start at lower dosages. Meanwhile, the overall amount of product is the same.
There is 300mg of 4-Amino-2-Methylpentane, or AMP Citrate.
This stimulant is quite new, and many consider it to be “DMAA-lite”. If it is indeed anything like DMAA, then that is a whopping dosage – especially on top of everything else.
In addition, we still don’t know much about it or have any research on it. How does it really work? Does it interact with other ingredients? What’s the ideal dosage?
One can also argue that it’s about “as natural as DMAA” as far as legality is concerned. We’ll see where this one ends up over the next couple of years…
But, once again, unlike the older days of OG 1MR and DS Craze, this is a fully disclosed formula. You know what you’re getting. To a degree, up to you to do your research and figure it out or steer clear.
But will that argument stand up if someone gets hurt?
You won’t find this in your local GNC, that’s for sure… but any newbie can type some stuff into Google and find this stuff online.
Update: If you’re interested in learning more about this ingredient, which C&P will likely discontinue from their offering, see our AMP Citrate article.
Our warning on this product
So please, heed our warning: Don’t use this product unless you are in 100% perfect cardiovascular condition (see your doctor and get some bloodwork done), have used other stimulant-heavy products, and start light — like 1/3 of a scoop.
At the end of the day…
No matter what you may think about these guys and their products, it’s clear that a portion of the market does want this, and Chaos and Pain is delivering.
In fact, they’re delivering really damned well.
We look forward to seeing where they end up.
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The honest truth lives here. Follow us on social media below:
- Why go Cannibal?; Chaos and Pain
- Aniracetam; PricePlow.com
- Piracetam; PricePlow.com
- Chaos and Pain Cannibal Genius; PricePlow.com
- Chaos and Pain Cannibal Da Vinci; PricePlow.com
- FDA Warning Letter on Piracetam; FDA.gov
- C&P Strength and Training Blog – Caution! Extremely NSFW!